DOUBLE CROSS - The Year In Review

Gordo, Jimmy Yu of Judge and Tim

As we wind down the hours of 2008, we take a minute to reflect on our favorite interviews of 2008 here on DCXX. While our one year anniversary comes up in March, we still spent a huge chunk of 2008 busy on DCXX. Tim will follow up with his 2008 Year In Review for an entry tomorrow. Expect much more in the new year!

Gordo's Top 5 Favorite Interviews

This is almost impossible. Here are at this moment, my favorite interviews we have done so far on Double Cross. We didn't include contributors or re-printed material - but if we did we'd have to give a big honorable mention to Joe Nelson, Tony Rettman, Jon Roa, and the host of others who have been big contributors here. Top 5...

5. Dave Smalley - To the outside world, this would make no sense: Email a guy some questions about a tattoo he got 25 years ago when he was a teenager, then post his answers with some pictures of him and the tattoo. Sounds retarded, no? This was a smaller piece, but man did it make me want to move to Boston, shave my head, and go get Smalley's classic True Till Death tattoo inked on me, possibly on my forehead.

4. Marco / The Icemen - Up until this, I had never seen a very thorough interview with any of the guys from The Icemen, and not with Marco. A personal favorite, this gave practically everything you could want to know about this NYHC powerhouse and really seemed to take you back to the time and place, while pulling no punches.

3. Tony Erba - I think both Tim and I knew this would provide some serious entertainment shock value, and did it ever. We censored nothing and Erba wanted it that way. If you haven't read this, skip your coffee tomorrow morning and check this instead. It will wake you up, Clevo style.

2. Djinji Brown - When word spread that Absolution would be reuniting, I figured that was the perfect opportunity to catch up with Miami-based Mr. Brown. A three hour conversation taped and transcribed, Djinji's story of growing up in NYC, becoming immersed in hardcore, and then moving on in his own life was honestly one of the most powerful stories I've ever heard. At some point I would like to make the full audio available. I shit you not, hearing Djinji talk about his life and experiences will give you chills.

1. Jimmy Yu - If it wasn't for Jimmy Yu, Djinji's interview would be the clear winner. But sitting down at Jimmy's house, Judge playing in the background, a half dozen white Kramer guitars off to the side (with whammy bars), as Jimmy took us back to where it all started for him...it got a little surreal. I'd love to make the audio of this available at some point as well, but that would only tell half the story. Seeing the look in Jimmy's eyes when he talked about going to A7, running wild in the streets, playing in JUDGE, and how essential it was in his life really can't be described. The guy was as real and as gracious as they come. If you have never checked out this interview, please, free up an hour or so and read it all immediately.

HONORABLE MENTIONS: So many...Dave Bett, Todd Schwartz, Ajay Enuf, Straight Edge Hank Peirce, Tom Kuntz, Andy Guida, Jason Peterson...too many to list. Thanks for reading!

Jimmy Yu - Death Before Dishonor / Judge

Jimmy at his parents house in East Stroudsbrug, PA. Photo: Tim DCXX

One of the most mysterious guys to ever come through the doors of the NYHC scene may in fact be Jimmy Yu. When Tim and I were getting content together for Double Cross, Porcell told us, "Man, you gotta interview Jimmy Yu! He was there from the beginning and he just disappeared! He went from being a lower east side punk to a full on Buddhist!"

Though he was actually from New Jersey, Jimmy lived the NYHC scene every weekend from 1982 on, right alongside a guy known today as Mike Judge. He started Death Before Dishonor with his brother Steve and of course Mike, recruiting another friend to pick up the mic - Mark Ryan (maybe you have heard of him?). DBD would later disband, and Jimmy would be the first bassist in Judge until he vanished in early 1989, never resurfacing.

I was surprised to say the least when it turned out that Jimmy is currently living in the same town as where I grew up (East Stroudsburg, PA), about 10 miles from where my parents still live. Having just received his doctorate in East Asian Buddhist History from Princeton, he's hiding out there with his family until he moves to Florida next month. I got in touch with him, and he was totally down to be interviewed.

I can't say enough cool things about Jimmy – just a class act, super friendly, and you could tell that his time in hardcore meant the world to him and is a major part of who he is. When we brought some old photos his eyes lit up. The guy may have walked away from this life 20 years ago, but you can tell that he took as much of it with him as he could.

This is part one.

-Gordo DCXX

One of the reasons Mike and I got into hardcore was because growing up in Montville (New Jersey), in this upper middle class area, nobody accepted us. He was a little bit chubby, and he worked on a farm, whereas all the other kids had parents that were lawyers and doctors or whatever. And for me, I was Chinese, and we were the only Chinese family in town at that time. We moved there from Taiwan in 1980 when I was in 5th grade. One of the reasons I moved was because my brother Steve got in trouble, he was a screw-up. And my father was a high-ranking government official. So a lot of times my Dad would have to bail him out, and it didn't look good for him. So my Dad said, look, we'll send the two of you to America, you'll get a better education, etc. And so my Mom and Steve and me moved and my Dad stayed. And when we got there, kids had never seen a Chinese person. So the kids would come up to me and say "DO YOU KNOW KUNG FU!? DO YOU KNOW KUNG FU?!" And they would make fun of me. I was kind of an outcast as it was, so this didn't help at all.

Also, my family wasn't doing good, because my Dad stayed behind, and my Mom had been in business but now that wasn't going so well. So it was tough on us. And right when we got there, I would get in fights every day. After school I had to walk past this firehouse, and behind this firehouse there would be these fights every single day. All day these kids would pick on me, and then they would arrange fights for after school, they made me fight, I had no choice. In the beginning I would lose, because I had to learn how to fight these wrestlers, these jocks. I wasn't used to wrestling, we didn't do that in Taiwan. And I got my ass kicked so many times.

But after a while, I wouldn't lose anymore. But I didn't want to fight, I was so sick of it. I would just win and get it over with, as soon as the kid would lunge at me, BOOM! I would just crack them in the nuts. That way I could just go home, so I could watch my TV shows, play guitar, and get on with my life.

They would send kids after me though. This one time they sent the new kid after me, this kid Joe, and he was my friend! We walked home together each day. He was like six feet tall, this big black kid, in 6th grade! But he was like a total teddy bear, a really nice guy. They were like, "Joe, today is your turn! Jimmy said something about your mother!" They made it like "Muhammad Ali versus Bruce Lee," that was how the fight was billed. I was like, "Joe, we walk home together every day! How can you fight me? You know I didn't say that!"

But Joe had to prove himself with this peer pressure crap. And I'm like, "Come on Joe, we don't have to do this, we are friends, we can walk home." But they talked him into it, cheered him on. So he comes after me, swings at me, and I just counter with an uppercut to his nose, and I broke his nose. Blood everywhere. The next day, he came to school with these big bandages over his nose, but we still walked home together. Just so stupid. Stuff like that every day for years, I hated it.

And Mike dealt with that too. And he dealt with it before I even met him, he dealt with it just like I did. Because I met Mike when I was in 7th grade, and he was in 9th grade, because he is a year and half older than me. He is turning 41 this year, and I am turning 40 this year. But we had that connection as outcasts that had to deal with this. And my brother Steve was his best friend, so we all became best friends. We got close, and man, that was just the beginning…

Todd Schwartz - Judge roadie

About a year ago, Tim uploaded the JUDGE “Where It Went” video onto YouTube. We were watching it one day and noticed that someone left a comment about being the band’s roadie. We had known that one of Mike’s friends, Todd Schwartz, was the JUDGE roadie and went onto to also play with Mike in Old Smoke. Having never really heard much about Todd, even though he seemed to be one of the few people from hardcore to remain tight with Mike after JUDGE, we thought it would be cool to see what he had to say about his time with the band and his time afterwards.

For a band that is well chronicled and documented, to me there is still just a general mysteriousness to JUDGE. Think about it: they started out as the brainwork of a young and furiously straight edge Mike Judge, who teamed up with Porcell to create an overly-blunt yet devastatingly raw debut EP that created as many fans as it did enemies…and they ended up a 5 piece metallic hardcore powerhouse that thanked and sampled Harley-Davidson motorcycles and covered When The Levee Breaks, complete with harmonica solo from Todd, on their final release (and all of that is awesome as far as I am concerned). The whole way through, there is absolutely no questioning that they were a straight edge hardcore band to the fucking bone.

I think every time I have been hanging around Porcell I have said, “please just tell me everything possible about JUDGE.” Having never gotten a friend/roadie perspective, I thought Todd might have some cool insights and stories to share.

Todd was cool to talk to and psyched to answer our questions. If you are into paintball, be sure to check out Todd's company and website at: www.sinergypaintball.com -Gordo

Where did it all start for you - getting into hardcore, going to shows, etc?

It all started for me in high school. I was part jock (mohawk and all), and part punk.

Just out of curiosity, who were your favorite bands, hardcore or otherwise, from that time period?

Bad Brains. Can you imagine listening to them just before bed? Well I did and it ain’t good for you.

At what point did you meet Mike (or any of the other JUDGE guys for that matter), and what type of connection did you have with him/them?

I met Mike in high school. Our girlfriends were friends with one another and both eccentrics. Personally I thought Mike was a Nazi because of his boots and braces look. There was no such thing as SHARP back then so I went with my ignorance on the matter. Later in high school both me and Mike had a mutual friend, Howard Horowitz, who was older than both of us, totally into punk and had a huge half pipe. Mike couldn't skate for shit, but he would hang and everyone would listen to music. At that time Mike's whole world revolved around the scene in NYC and I guess you could say that I could care less. I was all about skateboarding, football and listening to punk – i.e. The Faction, Misfits, etc. I also went to school with Jimmy Yu who I actually knew much better than Mike back in the day. There was no such band at the time, just thought I'd mention it.

Jimmy Yu is another mysterious dude. Without jumping ahead too much, any idea where he wound up post-Judge? I have heard he has been involved in Academia for a long time.

All I know is what I heard and that comes from pretty reliable resources. Jimmy Yu is a full on monk living on Canal St. in NYC, but who knows?

So what was your involvement with JUDGE and the late 80s straight edge scene prior to becoming a JUDGE roadie?

I hit a YOT show at the Anthrax when Mike was playing drums for them, I think in 1987. While stationed in San Diego with the Marine Corps in the 80s JUDGE came across my radar. I was totally into hardcore and was running SHARP west of the Mississippi. Mike's girlfriend from high
school introduced me to Marcus in NYC when I was home on leave from the Marines and the rest of SHARP was history. I hooked up with Mike through the same mutual friend from high school after getting out of the service and we immediately became best friends. To us it was more about riding Harleys than hardcore. Personally I think Mike had already entered a transitional time in his life moving away from his music while most moved towards it.

The JUDGE seven inch is like a ton of bricks and is one of the most lyrically straight edge records ever written. What were your thoughts on straight edge, and how did those thoughts change or not change while being around the band?

Imagine this, here I am… this twenty-something carnivore kid, fresh out of the Marine Corps, hooking up with a straight edge band who lived what they sang about. Despite all the ball breaking, I started to eat rabbit food on tour. It was in Detroit at an African restaurant with Snow Black and the Seven Black Dwarfs on the front lawn. No shit. But, I refused to give up my beers. I wasn't a big drinker, but to have a few brews back in the day seemed like too much fun to give up. For the next two years I could confidently call myself the only Jewish, marine, vegan, anti-racist skinhead.

As a roadie, did you perceive Mike and the band's feelings on straight edge as less intense by 1990 or so due to the changing scene? Can you shed any light on this having been around them?

Fact: Mike practiced what he preached. He was a full on vegan on tour, did not drink and I can assure you we were the only band selling places out and not getting laid hahaha. Mike remained a vegan long after although.

By the time Bringin’ It Down was released, JUDGE was one of the biggest hardcore acts in the country without question. What was your perception of their place in a hardcore scene that was headed in a lot of different directions around that time period?

Unlike a lot of bands we all loved from that era, JUDGE actually knew how to play their instruments and had that professional sense about them that bands like the Cro-Mags had.

Racist Skinheads were a gigantic part of the problems that plagued the late 80s hardcore scene. JUDGE clearly took a strong stance against this crowd. Did you perceive racist skinheads knowing JUDGE was not fond of them?

For sure, not only did those shitheads know JUDGE did not share the same views, but the learned that they would most likely receive a good fucking beating if they came for a fight.

What shows from that time period stand out as the most memorable?

We played in Tampa where a bunch of Nazis came for a fight and a fight is what they got. I remember Mike calling his dad and telling him he wasn't going to make it out alive and he loved him. Anyway, these Nazis hooked a black bum off the street and brought him into the show, placed him in the middle and within 30 seconds of the first song, "Where it Went," the Nazis put a smack down on this poor guy. I jumped in, kicked some Nazi ass and was happy to see Mike over my shoulder along with me. I'll never forget Sammy standing on the side of the stage holding Porcell's acoustic guitar like a baseball bat holding back the crowd. By the way there are a hundred of these stories.

What are some of your funny memories of touring with the band?

The van broke down in Iowa on Route 80 and I was so bored I took a shit next to the van in the slow lane. For the next 30 minutes we went nuts every time a car or truck would go by. Eventually an eighteen wheeler nailed that pile doing eighty miles per hour, and splat! The whole side of the van was covered in shit. Take this and imagine 100 more stories. Another one was I broke my hand on a guys head after wrapping him up in a gas pump hose and putting a beating on him. Later that night we all got arrested. They actually rolled the dude up in an ambulance, opened the rear doors and he pointed at me. The other JUDGE guys went free.

Let's talk motorcycles. When did you and Mike get into riding together? What specifically did you ride then, and what would a typical cruise be like for you? Did you share a lot of the same tastes/interests when it came to Harleys? I am guessing you could never sell Porcell on the idea of a rigid knuckle with apes and a 180 rear, eh?

LOL... Porcell was cool because he thought it was the absolute coolest thing in the world that he had these two bikers on the road with him. Mike rode his 1989 softtail and I had a 1990 FatBoy. We both became obsessed with speed and performance long before Jesse James and the boys of Discovery Channel. We rode our bikes 300 days a year. We rode everywhere. We rode to Daytona Bike Week for the 50th (1000 miles in the snow and rain)… that is a book in itself. Both of us still have our bikes. Mike’s bike transformed to look like the bike from Harley Davidson and the Marlboro man.

Do you still ride with Mike? What are you guys riding these days?

Nah, I don't get a chance to ride much with Mike these days. I'm a firefighter and ride with a firefighter motorcycle club. Having four kids makes it tough to plan anything.

Tell me about doing Old Smoke and working with Mike on his acoustic material after JUDGE ended. This is very intriguing to a lot of JUDGE fans.

It all started out with me calling Jordan and telling him, "I'm the only one that can get Mike off the farm and recording. The only catch is that you have to do it my way.” In short, that meant Mike was going to play what he wanted to play, no catches. I hooked Mike up with a recording studio inside of my warehouse in the meat market. What made this magical was that it belonged to Richie Havens, the first man to play at Woodstock. Richie's road manager was a close friend of mine, and he took us under his wing. We began to record the Sights record on 1/2 tape using equipment from Jimi Hendrix's Electric Lady Land Studios… old lelies, hammond organs, sick authentic shit. The defining moment for me was we were jamming late one afternoon and Richie Havens came in. Mike had not met him yet, but I knew him quite well. We were playing Can't You See by the Marshall Tucker Band and Richie jumped in on the hammond organ. Next thing you know it we have like three or four old hippies backing up Mike Judge playing a vintage southern rock song. It was sick. I didn't want to stop, I was happier for Mike than myself. Although we recorded the album old school and as authentic as anyone could have imagined, it sucked. Not the songs, just the mix. Subsequently, Mike took his own money and we recorded in a dump in our hometown with our new bass player and drummer. Around the same time, we began to gig. Our first big gig was at the Bank on Houston Street in the village. 75% bikers, 20% close friends, 5% confused hardcore people. We played the city about once per month and NJ about the same. We rehearsed 2-3 times per week and for all intents and purposes we were busy. I loved Old Smoke and so did Mike. Mike was actually playing the music he loved. Although our recording sucked, we sounded like Neil Young and Crazy Horse to the fucking T. Mike would do acoustic gigs on his own from time to time, but mostly full band/acoustic, 50/50 sets. We were like the reincarnation of Neil Young. Mike was extremely motivated sinking a lot of his own money into recording. We felt very comfortable playing this style of music. Honestly, I liked it because it put me on a level with Mike musically that he shared with Porcell. Don't get me wrong, things were mostly Mike, but I had the opportunity to write songs, and my guitar was the backbone to the four-piece.

To wrap this up, a question that practically every JUDGE fan wants to know: what was Mike Judge really like? You are one of very people to have been tight with him before, during and after the JUDGE days.

I love Mike, he is a good man and a better friend. We started Old Smoke, and even though it didn't go far, it kept us close for years riding motorcycles, playing in clubs and just being bikers. Mike is really a talented musician that a lot of JUDGE fans will never get to experience. Out of respect for his privacy I choose to keep mum on him. We still live a mile from one another and see each other from time to time. He is a hard working guy and likes to keep things simple. If there is anybody who will get him to play again, that'll be me. I used to bust his chops but decided to let things go. Being Mike Judge would make Mike happy. What exactly that is is left to the imagination.

Jimmy Yu - Part VI, The Final Entry

Jimmy with Judge at CBGB, NYC. Take note of a young Skip Turning Point X'ed up and packed up front. Photo: Boiling Point

This wraps up our gigantic interview with Jimmy Yu. Be sure to go back and check any parts you have missed.

We want to give Jimmy a big thanks for being a gracious host and letting us put this out there for everyone. And oh, Jimmy just got his doctorate from Princeton, so he is now Dr. Yu! Coolest doctor to come out of hardcore? You decide.

-DCXX

I started going on retreats once I really got into Buddhism and left Judge. I have a tendency to be pretty extreme. When I get into something, I completely dive into it. I had a girlfriend in college for four years, and even that didn't hold me back in becoming a monk. Each time I would tell her that's what I needed to do, she would cry. The first time she just started crying, and I said, "Ok, don't cry, I won't do it." The second time I told her she started to cry and I thought, "Oh no, I can't see her cry!" So I didn't do it. The third time, I just did it, I just moved in. I found out that this was the most meaningful thing I can do. By that point I just felt like life was meaningless. I didn't even think I would live past 20, the way I was living. I needed something useful. I felt like, "Wow, I can actually translate these texts from Chinese into English. I can do something. I can be a useful person and transcribe these things for my Zen Master." And I dove right in.

I kept in touch with my friends when I left Judge, but not on a major level. It's a shame. But that's how I am when I dive into something. I didn't keep in touch with the guys in Judge in a way where I knew what the new record was like or anything. And after I graduated in 1991, I moved right to the monastery, and I kept in touch with no one. Nobody at all. A big part of it was the travel, because every 3 months I was back and forth to Taiwan. I was just trying to understand this new thing, learning it. I didn't look back. I went to the University of Kansas after I lived in the monastery, and then I came back to the east coast and went to Princeton. So I got in touch and looked some people up then, but not much.

All of us in the hardcore scene were kind of looking for something. Even early on when we were crazy, diving off of stages, getting in fights and fighting people, going nuts at shows, on one hand we were lost. But on the other hand we were still searching for something even though we were. So I guess these religious traditions kind of attracted some of us, especially the Hare Krishnas, they accepted us and they accepted street kids…when nobody else did. They were accepted…no matter what.

So, I found my place. My brother on the other hand, he actually ran away from home. It started out with him doing this many times. Usually he always came home, I would open the back door, and he came back. But then one time he didn't come back, and I was starting to worry. He found some place to work, and he was staying at a girl's house and living with her, and that's now actually his wife believe it or not. But he never came home. He got into work, and she had a child from a previous marriage, and real quick he just became like a family man and a provider. He didn't go to school, he just worked and built his career from there.

He wasn't really around to see Judge and all that. I told him about it, but he was in a different place. DBD was his thing, he always loved that. That was the band that Steve really loved, at the time he was like, "Yeah, that's my future, playing guitar, doing this band." That was his life. Every now and then he'll say "Let's do it again!" I'm like, "Steve, come on. Twenty years later. There is already another hardcore band with the name. Hang it up." But he loved it.


Jimmy and Mike at Oliver J's in Allentown, PA, Photo: Boiling Point

Yesterday with Mike, he brought up to speed about so much. Talking about the old days, who is where now, who has died, what he is up to. He actually wanted to know who I was in touch with or what I knew, because he is really a hermit, he doesn't really stay in touch with anyone or seek anyone out. We talked about how we were family back then, and that was really deep to hear his say that. Just seeing him was like seeing a brother, you know? It had been twenty years, it was emotional. And we made plans to stay in touch, because the context for us to hang out in, it wasn't right. But it meant a lot.

Mike and I, we were very close. Even yesterday when I saw him, I was getting all emotional, and I said, "Mike man, I've very grateful to you, that you were my best friend during those days." Mike took in what I said, but he isn't the type of guy that would break down and share his feelings, so he didn't know how to react. But he took in what I said. He was telling me yesterday that me and Steve, we were his family. Steve was his first best friend. He was an outcast in a preppy town, and they were best friends. And then me. The three of us just hung out all the time. It was family.

I just want to say thank you. Thank you to you guys for taking the time to do this, thank you to all the kids from so many years ago, the people we met, the people we hung out with, played with, went crazy with...and moshed with. It was family. It was a time and a place in my life I have always hung on to. I couldn't ever forget about that. To the guys in Judge - Mike, Porcell, Sammy, even Luke and Drew, and Matt and Lars that came afterwards that I never even really knew. That band was a big part of me even if for a short time, and I am very proud of what we did.

I'll never forget it.

Jimmy Yu - The New York Crew

Tim and I had been talking about wanting to track down Jimmy Yu for a Double Cross interview (if a reason for wanting to do that is necessary, then you my friend are on the wrong website). We knew he had been going to grad school at Princeton the past few years (FYI: this is up the street from Tim's house), which meant he could have literally been walking around humming the riff to "In My Way" within earshot of us at times and we wouldn't have even known it. Seeing as he is relatively local and nobody has seemed to have heard a peep from him, how could we not get in touch with him?

So I shoot Jimmy an email, and he says he is down and that I should give him a call. Here's the interesting part: he has a 570 area code (like me), which is common in northeast Pennsylvania and the Poconos. Now, I grew up in East Stroudsburg, a small town where my parents still live and I still visit almost every other weekend. Hardcore population: minimal. I figure he is still living in Princeton and maybe just has a random area code number. Wrong. We start talking and Jimmy says he lives in the Poconos. I ask him where specifically and he says, "East Stroudsburg." Whoa, weird. Turns out he is living about a stone's throw up the street from the bedroom I grew up in moshing to Judge (yeah, I definitely did not see Judge, so that is as good as it got for me). Small, small world.

Anyways, we are gonna meet up with Jimmy in a couple weeks, sit down, and get it all on tape - CB's, Death Before Dishonor, Judge, The Anthrax, you name it. I think we have reason to be psyched, since he was telling me he digs the site, loved seeing the Judge video posted, is moving to Florida soon and wants to hang with Porcell, and asked me what Sammy and Mike were up to and wants to get in touch. New York Crew? Fuck...it sure sounds like it. Stay tuned.

-Gordo DCXX

Jimmy Yu - Part III

Here is the third installment of our interview with Jimmy Yu.

One thing we forgot to point out is that the day before we did this interview, Jimmy drove out to Montville where Mike still lives and just randomly showed up at his house. He had not seen Mike since leaving Judge in early 1989. Mike was having a family BBQ but he and Jimmy got to talk for a little bit. Jimmy goes into this later on in the interview, but just figured we'd bring it up since Jimmy references it here.

-DCXX

SSD, Minor Threat…the straight edge bands from then, we listened to their music, but slowly it got deeper than that. You see, a lot of those early hardcore bands, their lyrics were good, and I hate to say this…but they were just similar to other normal punk bands that were writing songs. So, these straight edge bands were so much different from what we had been hearing, because they had a deeper message, at least to us. It attracted us, and it meant something more. And when we really started listening to this, we started putting Xs on our hands, because you know, that's what you saw on the cover of their albums! And gradually, we just went in that direction.

But people in New York, Vinnie for instance, I remember him being like "what the hell is that on your hand?" Because prior to that, Mike and I definitely were not straight edge, we were pretty crazy, and we hung out with those guys. Drug and drink wise, you name it, we probably did it. Vinnie and everyone else had been there with us doing it. With the exception of shooting up, we did everything, it was fair game. But shooting up, we at least had enough common sense to not do that. Because we knew that doing that you would just get addicted, and you're fucked, you're done.

Still though, Agnostic Front was really a big influence on us and on us deciding to do DBD. They were always playing. At CB's, there would be an 8 band matinee, and they would always be one of them. Because you know, each song was like two seconds long! Vinnie was not like a master guitarist, but he was a good rhythm guitarist, he was hard and he played it like that, you know? We always went to see them. So once we had the idea to do a band, we had our spot. We knew where we would be going, who we would try to tag along with. We had found our scene.

So, Mike bought a drum set. He just picked it up and started playing, Mike was very talented. And I had always played guitar, even before punk, I bought my first guitar. I would play AC/DC and pretend I was Angus Young. Eddie Van Halen? Nah, too hard to emulate, I can't play that. But AC/DC, yeah. So it was natural, "let's start a band!" But my brother also played guitar and he wanted to be the guitar player, and of course he is just as tight with Mike, it's the three of us always going to shows. And he was older than Mike, he was driving before Mike. But he said he was playing guitar, case closed. So then it was like, "ok, you play guitar, and I will play bass." My brother used to beat me up all the time, so whatever he says, I'm just like, "Ok, fine, I guess I'm playing bass."

So the three of us started going up to Mike's house, either his room or his garage, and started figuring out songs. And Mike is a very smart guy. Maybe people don't give him enough credit. I don't mean like a scheming type of smart. I mean he was a very thoughtful person, kinda quiet. His brother also beat him up all the time, I guess we had that connection as well – even though Steve was cool and Mike's friend too. But Mike's older brother was a lot older, much older, and definitely not into punk. He was like a redneck cowboy, he rode a horse and shit. And he hated the whole punk thing and would come down on Mike about it. So Mike had that coming at him at home, as well as at school. Later on he would pour out his own feelings in his lyrics in his own way, and it was very smart. It just came out in such a great, heavy way. But yeah, we just started playing, DBD was on it's way. We didn't have a name yet, but I'll get to that.

I don't know how we met him exactly, but we met Mark Ryan from shows long before DBD. He was in New Jersey too, and we got to know him real well. He was into hip-hop even back then, even when we were skinheads. I think he liked the energy of it. We were all just kids that were looking for something. He would joke around and act like he was a hip-hop dude, he would talk like them, like the whole, "Yo B what up yo?" He was totally white, but he would talk like he was black you know? But he was a mosher too! It was like how the Beastie Boys were. We were friends with, and they turned the same way. They had a total hardcore edge at first, then they disappeared for like a year or two, and then out of nowhere they are opening up for Madonna at Madison Square Garden! Like, that was just crazy. We were like, "what the fuck was that!? How did they go from CB's to Madison Square Garden?" I don't know what their connection was, but they did it.

Jimmy busting some chords, he still plays guitar and has about 8 Kramers and Charvels, mostly white with tremolos. No joke, he can really shred. Photo: Tim DCXX

And talking about Mark, this reminds me, there was a real gray area between straight edge kids, hardcore kids, punks, Hare Krishnas, and hip hop kids in NYC. It could all blur together, and it did. Especially hip-hop, it really came from the streets, and it had that element of violence. So, these boundaries were really blurred. It wasn't like, "Ok, you are a rapper, and you are a straight edge kid, and you are a hardcore kid," it wasn't so strict and defined. So, Mark, he listened to that stuff, and he liked the violence and the reality of it. We can't project back our current situation to what was happening then. Back then, it was like, "Hey, are you a little crazy? Cool, then you are one of us!"

For Mike and me it was a little difficult, because in Jersey, that boundary was pretty fuckin' clear. You were either a jock, or an outcast, or a rapper…well actually, no, because there was only like one black kid in Montville. And I'm going to his wedding next month! But in NYC, around the street kids, that boundary was just really gray. And that was the thing with Mark – so for him to go that route, it was cool and natural. I'm not even sure if he moved to the city, but if he did, then those boundaries were gone, for sure. And back then, if you were white and listened to rap, that was fuckin' rare.

Similarly, it was just like us listening to Metallica before the Kill 'Em All record came out. We saw their show, and they were throwing out their demo of the record before it came out. Somehow Mike got a copy of it, and he played it for us in his car in our high school parking lot. So he says, "Jimmy, listen to this shit." We were blown away, like, "what the hell is that?!" And he says, that's called "double bass drum." To us it was like hardcore just gone crazy. We had never thought about something like that in hardcore. It was like hardcore kids playing this music, except they had long hair and were more talented. That was great! And we just absorbed that too. And I think some of that came out later in Judge. I mean you can't really see that many traces of it, but it was in Mike's head, and mine too.

I remember listening to the song "Fade To Black" over and over and over. The way James Hetfield characterized dying, that song just spoke to me so much, because I didn't think I was gonna live past 20, and it summed up how I felt. I mean it was just so crazy, before finding straight edge, there was just no hope. After that we found some meaning to life and something to stand behind. But before that, it was very grim. As a drummer, Mike really loved that stuff. To him, it was an invention, with that speed and that energy. We really just absorbed it. Even the "chugga chugga chugga" crunching in Judge, that was Metallica. Cro-Mags, they absorbed it too. And they were more metal. Judge was more straight edge and straight forward hardcore, but the traces were there.

But like I was saying with the boundaries not being so clear, back then that's just how it was, and I think maybe that's how it was even for the guys in Metallica in California, I don't know what was in their heads. Maybe they were into punk? Where did they get the idea to play so fast? Misfits? So you know they were drawing inspiration for their art from all sorts of places.

But anyways, DBD, we would drive to Nutley, pick Mark up, and go back to Mike's and rehearse, or go straight into the city and practice at a studio. Mike always paid. His family was upper middle class, their farm was a big animal farm, and they did well. They sold horses, everything. So Mike actually had money. He took care of all of us. If we needed help or needed something, he's the man. He worked hard for the family on the farm. But Mike always did it all when it came to paying for things with DBD, we tried to chip in some but it was mostly Mike.

Mike and I wrote the music for DBD, and Steve came up with some too. Then we would present the music to Mark. Mark would send us lyrics, Mike would look at it, and then we would come up with the music. Or sometimes we had the music, and we would see how Mark would want to sing to it. It was pretty free flowing. Mike even contributed to writing some of the lyrics in DBD, but it was mostly Mark. But that shows you, Mike was already starting.

We didn't have a band name right away. And the other thing is that back then, Mike was just Mike, he wasn't "Mike Judge." But Stigma way back used to always come up with names for us. All sorts of crazy shit. Before we even had a name for DBD, we had songs and would play, but we didn't have a name, and Stigma would try to come up with names for us. One time he was like, "Yo, you guys all have shaved heads. So how about calling your band 'Chemotherapy'?" We were like, "Umm, NO!" Or he would say, "you guys are from Jersey, so how about the Jersey Moshers?" Again, we were like, "NO."

Actually just yesterday, Mike and I were talking about this. I remember driving Mike's car in Montville, getting gas at this gas station in Pine Brook. A biker pulled up and was getting gas. As he is doing that, we were sitting in the car, and we are trying to figure out names. One of us looked over at the biker, and we saw he had a tattoo that said "Death Before Dishonor." Right then, one of us said, "that's it, Death Before Dishonor, that's the band name." That's how I remember that.

We played out a decent amount, but I don't know why we never had a legitimate recording. We had a full set of songs, but there was never a formal demo. We taped everything, every rehearsal was a supposed "demo." But we were really poor, so the money we did spend went towards studio time in the city. I think we may have thought that eventually the "demo" would become a record. Back then though, to make a record was not that easy, it was a big deal to even do a 45. It would cost a lot of money, and you would have to find a guy to product it and mix it. It was a little beyond us. When DBD was around, Agnostic Front, who was a big band, they only had an EP, and that was a big deal. Later on they came out with their LP, and that was a very, very big deal. By the time Judge came around, bands could put out their own records and everything, but a few years earlier in DBD, it was a different time.

We saw every hardcore band that played in New York City, or at least we tried to. And DBD played with a lot of bands. We played with Youth Of Today and we were big fans, so we knew Youth Of Today before Mike ever played drums for them. Cappo had a presence. Maybe not like HR, but he could certainly hold a crowd. We were definitely into them. So we all started hanging out. They lived far from us, but anytime they came to the city, we hung out. At some point they got Mike to play drums. DBD kinda fell apart. Mark formed Supertouch, we weren't involved in that.

Mike and I, we did a new band. And of course, that band was Judge…

TO BE CONTINUED

Jimmy Yu - Part V

Judge at CBGB. Photo: Boiling Point

Jimmy Yu talks on Judge, Buddhism and life after hardcore. Part VI, the final piece from this interview coming soon. If you've missed anything, be sure to check out the previous interview entries. -DCXX

We recorded every Judge practice, because we always practiced at the same place, and they had a huge PA mixing board. This was the same place we practiced for DBD. But so many of those Judge practices run together. I don't remember what was what, but so many were like real recordings, hundreds, with good levels and sound. But we didn't see it as a precious recording, so we would copy over previous recordings, and we were so poor that we would even just take shitty actual tapes, like real band's tapes, and put scotch tape over the little squares on the top and record like that. I wish we hung onto those. They could be anywhere, in the garbage somewhere. We recorded with Luke, and with Sammy. But that's how we learned our songs, every now song, we learned it by recording it. We would be like, "What did we just play?! That was great!" And we would go back and listen to it. There was some great stuff on those tapes.

I really don't remember recording the Chung King record, it just all runs together. There were so many rehearsals and recordings and it just is buried in memories. There is one time I remember recording and I think maybe that was the Chung King recording, but I just can't remember. I kept in touch enough to know about that record coming out, even though I was out of Judge by that point. It was a big deal to do that record, even if I don't remember it, doing an LP was still a big deal. I mean DBD went on for years and we never got a real demo out of it. Judge did the EP and then the LP pretty quickly, it was still a big deal. I heard about it when it came out, but I never got a copy.

I can see the transition now between the early Judge songs and the later songs, there was some progression. But at the time, they just seemed a little bit heavier with a little metal influence, and some slower tempos. But when we wrote those songs originally, the solos weren't there. I don't think metal influences were conscious, maybe to Porcell but I don't think to me and Mike. Back then it was just like, "Hey look at this new tune I have!" It wasn't like, "I wrote this song, it is a big change, it is a metal song, that's what we should make it sound like!" But we had learned how to play, I think we all learned how to really play. Sammy became a really, really great drummer, and Porcell really knew how to play guitar. We got tight, and heavy. Mike was always very smart and musical, but the way he sang those songs, that didn't just happen. He knew how to work in his influences and various genres, that was just his ingenuity. He was and is such a talented guy.

During Judge, I was still into going to shows and the bands that were around. I had been around for 7 or 8 years, and it was different. I wasn't 13 years old, and it wasn't new and scary. For me, it was just, "Yeah, I'm playing bass in Judge." I was getting into Buddhism, and trying to get away from a violent past. But when we played, I loved it. It wasn't boring! I always loved the moshing, the dancing, people stage diving and going off. It was a totally different era, the bands from 1983 were either broken up or much different by the time Judge was going. But I still liked a lot of the bands that were new and around. I was excited to see a lot of bands, even in Judge, and it was the same for Mike.

I think the people that say looking back, "Yeah, I wasn't really into those bands then, I was into the earlier bands before them," I think they are coming at it from a retrospective macro view. But at the time, when they were on the ground, they weren't thinking like that. They were a part of it and into it, even if now they try to deny it. Maybe now they want to look back and categorize eras and what they liked more or less, and they want to say, "I liked the earlier bands more, I didn't like the later bands." But I saw you there, on the ground, with these bands, being into it!

People like to create their own narratives and glorify their own era, and they want to pick and choose what to reminisce about. And this applies to those people who want to talk about their roles in early NYHC, and the formation and development of it, and how it is not the same as what came later on. They make it sound like it didn't happen or it was significant. It's the same as when you talk to an old man and he is like, "OHH back when I was young it was like this and I used to this! It's not the same anymore!" It's the same thing. So take it with a grain of salt.

The boundaries between eras in hardcore, and types of bands and all that, maybe now it is really distinct, but it wasn't back then. Not to me. Was I stage diving to Bad Brains in 1983? YES! Was I stage diving to Bold or other bands in 1988? YES! To me, it was all the same thing, and it was great. Ok, I mean the early Bad Brains shows were a totally different level, but it was all a part of the same thing. Even later era Bad Brains, when there was a whole set of reggae, you waited that whole set for the one hardcore song, because that was great, we were satisfied with just that. And even the reggae songs, HR was still kinda crazy and delirious looking, falling down and stuff, he wasn't laid back.

I don't try to diss the newer bands that are still going. I think that's great, keep on going, keep it alive. As long as you approach it genuinely and don't try to play out some fantasy act from the past. Move forward.

Even before Judge I had started to get into Buddhism. In 1987, I went to the School Of Visual Arts in NYC right after high school to start my freshman year of college. I was at SVA until 1991. Doing abstract expressionism for inspiration, I thought maybe I would look to Buddhism for inspiration. All of my friends were either into Hare Krishna, or Buddhism. So I thought, Ok, Buddhism. And then I really got into it.


Jimmy at his house, displaying a Chung King. Photo: Tim DCXX

I started to back out of hardcore while I was living above the temple, and doing Zen retreats. I started to fade out, in terms of going to shows, while Judge was continuing. I was even seeing Mike less and less because I was always in the city and he was always back in New Jersey. I had even already gotten out of skateboarding. Earlier on, Howard Horowitz and I had built a half pipe while I was still in Montville. But I broke my ankle, so I couldn't really do a lot of the tricks I used to do, and I got out of skateboarding too.

Even when I was living above the temple, Mike and those guys would stop by to pick me up when driving here on the way to the studio. They didn't have the number because I wasn't allowed to give it away. Even if they got someone on the phone, nobody spoke English. So they would come to the door, and be like explaining it to these monks, trying to act it out, you know like "We are looking for Jimmy, short hair, plays guitar, lives here, crazy?" And then the monks would figure it out and go upstairs and get me.

The guys in the band could see me drifting away. I remember they wanted to go on tour, and I couldn't do that. I was in school, and in the summer I was doing volunteer work and writing for Chan magazine. So I couldn't do that. It was a gradual thing, I think we didn't practice for a while, and they started practicing without me. It wasn't a difficult break, we were still friends. But I was talking to Mike about this yesterday, and I think it was like, "Yeah, I guess it's better if Jimmy left, so we can get someone steady." I can't remember my last show with the band, maybe a show at The Anthrax?

With Buddhism, I was lead to it by all the things I was into before it. That is a retrospective view now, I mean back then, I was just bumping from one thing to the next blindly. My parents wanted me to go to college. For me, it was either music or art. As a boy, I did art all the time. In fact, I forgot to mention this, but I drew a lot of NYHC flyers. The AF guys, those guys couldn't draw. So they would give me words and dates. If you see any skinhead moshing, on an AF or DBD flyer, I did it. Me and this other kid Tim Casinda, this skater kid, we do all those flyers. Not many people could draw that stuff, moshing half skinhead half monsters and everything. So yeah, I wanted to do art.

I remember thinking, if I go to school for music instead of art, I have to learn classical music, I have to learn music theory. Ahh, forget that. Art is easier, I can just draw. So I got into illustration. During that phase, Judge characterized me so much. As I got into art more, I really looked into the meaning, and the meaning of expressing yourself through art. Then I got into abstract art, which was totally impractical. This was kinda rare for a Chinese kid to not major in something practical like economics, or engineering, or medicine, or law. This lead into Buddhism, which weighed so much on meaning and expression. It helped me figure out so much about myself…why was I an outcast? Why was I different from other people? And I still am like that. If people go this way, I go the other way. I guess it is in my genes, it has passed on to my daughter.

So with abstract art, you had to draw inspiration from somewhere. People were drawing inspiration from their own western abstract art history, and I just thought, "I don't want to do that." That was just reproducing stuff and spitting it out. So I looked to ancient Chinese landscape paintings. I found in this painting, within this vacant vast empty space, there was this tiny little boat painted. That showed the interplay between emptiness and the little boat that was formed by just a few brush strokes.

That lead me into minimalism, and how just a few brush strokes could express so much. I found out that those paintings from 12th century China were influenced by Zen. So I'm thinking, "Wow, yeah, I remember that stuff, my Mom is into Zen." So I run downstairs to ask these Buddhist monks, they are right downstairs, I need to find out! So I started talking to them a lot, reading a lot, and I felt like I found something. All my life I had been headed south, and then right there, I found out, oh my God, north is the other way! And right away, I turned around and started running north, as fast as I could.

Porcell's List of the Best Moshers

[Porcell with Youth Of Today, Photo: Ken Salerno]

Porcelly wrote this a few years back on the True Till Death board. Since that site went the way of the dinosaurs not too long after this was posted, we figured it was worth a new publication. We also thought it would be cool to match up the stories with the faces, so we grabbed what photos we could to go along with each. RESPECT.

-DCXX

Ok, a subject that I can get into, here's my list...

-First and foremost, John Watson, first singer of Agnostic Front and Cro Mags roadie. The guy invented the circle pit for God's sake! (or at least was the first to do it in NYC). Seriously, he was one of the first people to "mosh" instead of slam, and his style is pretty much the blueprint for what became NYHC style pitting.

[John Watson with Agnostic front, 1982, Photo: Savage Pink]

-Eric Cassanova, first singer for the Cro Mags. This guy was the most fearless stagediver I'd ever seen in my life! He was thin and wiry, tough as nails, and pretty much ruled the pit at CB's during the early-mid 80's. He roadied for the Bad Brains when I saw them at Lupos in Rhode Island and he was doing full spin dives off the pole in front of the stage halfway out into the audience. The dude had style.


[Eric Cassanova and Harley, Photo: unknown]

-Carl Mosh, singer for the Icemen and (briefly) Underdog. The guy took moshing to the next level, making it almost an art form. For just pure style, he was actually the best (hence the name), he just looked so damn cool when he was out there. Also pretty much invented all the stereotypical mosh moves -- picking up change, Thor's hammer, lawnmower, etc. Always imitated, never duplicated.

[Carl with The Icemen in DC, Photo: Ken Salerno]

-Jimmy Yu, first bass player for Judge. Jimmy was a martial arts expert who was definitely the innovator of the whole kickboxing thing. The dude could kick so high it was sick, he actually kicked the ceiling in the dressing room of the Anthrax once.

[Jimmy trying to contain himself at the Ritz, Photo: Boiling Point]

Honorable mention has to go to:

-Cappo. Was highly influenced by Carl Mosh, but added his own cool moves, most notably the knee skank.

[Cappo with Youth Of Today, Photo: Boiling Point]

-Womp'm, the guy that drew all those cool old NYHC flyers. Real hard looking dude who danced as hard as he looked. Once he broke his nose in the pit at a Youth Brigade show, went into the bathroom, straightened it out with his hands (I heard it crunch) and then went right back out to the dancefloor.

[Although not the actual guy "Womp'm", Russ's bass strap says it all, Photo: Boiling Point]

-Jason Krakdown. If he was in the pit, you were leaving with bruises. He gets points for sheer brutality.


Jay with Krakdown at CB's, Photo: Boiling Point]

-Mike Judge. Didn't really do much, just basically stood in the middle of the pit, looking menacing. Invented the face rake, hands on top of the head, look of anguish thing. The guy was just freakin' hard.

[Mike Judge, Photo: Boiling Point]

Gotta love moshing...Porcell

Poll results to which frontman you would most like to see interviewed

The almighty Judge in front of a massive City Gardens crowd, Photo: Ken Salerno

When I created this poll, I had no idea the results were going to be this lopsided... honestly. I had this strong feeling that everyone was killing to see a Jules interview and I knew people wanted to see an interview with Mike, but I didn't know it was so much more than all of these other guys. I'm genuinely surprised.

I have to apologize though, apparently me creating this poll led a lot of people to believe that we here at DCXX had access to all of these frontmen and would get who ever won the poll, up here on DCXX. Truth of the matter is that we've made attempts at a few of them and so far, none have bitten. The intent of this post was more of a way to get some of these guys in the know about how interested people really are into hearing from them. I do know that at least two of these guys have read or do read DCXX from time to time, so I was hoping they'd be impressed by the results and insist on breaking their silence. We'll see though, hopefully at least one of them will surface.

I will say, I know people really loved the interviews we did with guys like Jimmy Yu and Djinji from Absolution, but you have to realize that both of those guys are pretty unique personalities. Jimmy for example had never been interviewed. Obviously the guy had a lot to say and we happened to catch him at the right time. In the big picture, guys like Jimmy and Djinji are probably a bit rare. With that being said, that doesn't mean that we've given up on definitive, deep, multi entry interviews like those guys brought. As a matter of fact, I just got finished setting one up that I'm pretty sure should make a lot of people happy. I know it will at least make us happy. Stay tuned. -Tim DCXX

Mike Ferraro - Judge: 239
Pat Dubar - Uniform Choice: 116
Jules Masse - Side By Side: 102
Tommy Carrol - Straight Ahead: 94


Mike gives a sing along to the City Gardens crowd, Photo: Ken Salerno

Jimmy Yu - Part IV, The Beginning Of Judge

Jimmy Yu continues, this time we get into Judge. More still to come.

-DCXX

With Judge, the way I remember it is a little different. Maybe I'm wrong, I will have to ask Porcell about this. But I remember writing Judge songs with Mike before Judge. Mike had the ideas, and he would play them on drums. As I remember it, Youth Of Today was together. So Mike and I needed a drummer, and we needed a bassist, because I didn't want to play bass, I refused to play bass. The idea was for me to play guitar, but we couldn't find a bassist. We could, however, find Porcell, and he plays guitar! So I was like, "fuck, I'm down to playing bass again!" That's why those early songs had bass leads, because I played guitar! But those were edited out. Either Porcell or Jordan told me that. But I didn't even own a bass, I didn't even have a bass amp. I think Mike had a bass, or when we played out I borrowed one from another band. And that sucked because if I did that I couldn't really thrash out, because it's somebody else's bass and I have to give it back to them.

But the transition to Judge was a pretty natural thing from DBD, because we practiced at the same club, which was on the edge of the east village and Chinatown, this basement place. Porcell would remember the name. So it was practicing at the same place, just with a new band. And it wasn't like, "Oh my God we have this new band!" It was just like, "Ok, Judge, cool."

I think I was living in New York when the Judge seven inch was recorded. Honestly, I don't know why I didn't play on that. Mike and I wrote some of those songs. My memory is that Youth Of Today was happening and that was their main thing. I can't remember if this is while Mike was still in Youth Of Today or not. But the focus at the time was on Youth Of Today, not Judge. Judge was just a side project in its inception stages. So we had to circulate our players, especially with drummers you know? One time it was Luke, and then another time it was Drew. There were only a handful of people that played instruments.

Mike also wrote a lot, if not all of the music - at least that I remember. I don't know exactly what music Porcell listened to at that time. Mike and I though, we listened to the same music. So we had the same intuition as to what to write and what should happen within a song. So when playing live and practicing, we really both connected with that.


Judge Photo: Jeff Ladd

Mike even early on was listening to a lot of Neil Young, and absorbing those lyrics. I think that influence came out later. Mike's lyrics in Judge, I think they are deeper than a lot of lyrics. I mean, I don't want to compare bands and in any way make it seem like I am putting other bands down. But to me personally, I know why he wrote a lot of those lyrics, and what incidents happened that lead to those lyrics. So, it was very meaningful to us.

When the seven inch came out, and everyone got to see the lyrics, Mike's lyrics, that was the Mike that I knew. We were always angry. We grew up getting picked on, getting in fights. We saw a lot of shit. Our introduction to the New York hardcore scene was seeing Harley carrying around an eight ball in a sock, those were the surroundings, you know? We saw him use that. That can really do some serious damage…like, hospital damage. So we had that bottled up. Porcell…he was a peaceful guy. Straight edge, vegetarian. He was a different kind of straight edge in how he grew up. So naturally, I think Mike wrote the lyrics like he did. It wasn't forced. It wasn't an act.

So those lyrics, to me, it wasn't a shocker. He was writing songs about our lives. About the fights we got in, the friends that betrayed us, friends that died. There was a redhead skinhead kid, a great mosher, he was our friend, part of the New York Crew, even though he was from Connecticut. But he ran away from home, and came to New York. But someone pushed him off the train, and he died. Just so sad, some other gang did it. Our hearts went out to him.

You know, as skinheads, we weren't accepted by anyone. Anyone. Not by metalheads, regular gangs, other punks, Harley-Davidson gangs, nobody. And as far as other areas, other cities, we had friction. In New York, we had an edge to us. And we kept that up when it was kids from DC or kids from Boston that were around.

The lyrics to "New York Crew," people don't totally understand. We were from New Jersey but not that far outside of NYC, and we were in NYC every weekend and maybe one other day during the week. But people like Harley and everyone else, they were the ones that really lived there and hung out together all the time, nonstop. I mean, we were definitely there, but not like them. I mean, some of those guys, they were living in tiny apartments, like 6 skinheads in one apartment. We would come in and be there for an entire weekend straight, but it wasn't living the same way they were. But we still felt a part of it.

I will also say this, in response to what Harley said in the American Hardcore book, Harley hung out a lot with Eric. I'm sure he hung out with AF, but I'm not sure how much. He was kinda outside the immediate New York Crew. I think if you were to talk to Vinnie or Roger, they might give a better perspective of how much we were around. Because they were always around. So on one hand, I see what Harley was saying, because we weren't there 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. But at the same time, Harley himself was kind of a loner and even kind of outside of the New York skinheads. I mean, he hung out and was a real part of it, no question, but he had his own stuff going on too, so he wasn't always right there.

In the beginning of us going to shows, we weren't really tight with AF. But by the time DBD got going, they really took care of us. So we were much tighter with AF than any other band, they were the band we tagged along with. Harley was more just into moshing with Eric. Maybe my timeline is off, but I don't remember the Cro-Mags happening a lot at that time, and with DBD we didn't tag along with them like we did with AF.

As far as the terms "Wolfpack" and "United Blood," those weren't like actual crews and it wasn't how we identified ourselves, at least I don't think so. Those were just names that Mike gave us looking back when he wrote the Judge lyrics. I don't remember it being verbalized at the time, like, "Hey, we are the Wolfpack!" But we felt it in our hearts, and those descriptions when applied later by Mike made sense. Because at the time, in those threshold moments, like when Boston came down, and it escalated into becoming physical, in New York it didn't matter if you were a regular skin, a nazi skin, or what…you just kicked their fucking asses. That's it. You were New York. And in those moments, it was very clear that you stuck together, everyone. We are New York, and you…you are not. You want to try to rule the floor and try to crack people's heads? Dude, you're in the wrong place, man. We just jumped them. In those moments, we were united.

Those are my memories. It is a lot like how things were with me and my brother Steve – we would fight all the time amongst ourselves. But if someone messed with him or messed with me, we were right there for each other, because above all else, we were brothers. Maybe we fought with each other, but when it was someone else, it was a different story. And when Mike wrote "New York Crew," he's not talking about a straight edge crew. There was not a definitive crew, it was just everyone that hung out and stuck together in the moments when we were threatened. I think that song and the image and story in that song is about the moments when everyone in the New York scene, everyone, was united. Not just like the five of us and our little crew. It's about the moments when all of us felt that – when our backs were to the wall, when we had to fight, when we lost a brother.


Judge Photo: Jeff Ladd

I'll tell you this, all the skinheads were scared as hell to go to Tompkins Square back then. When we got out of A7, we didn't even walk through that shit. We took the long way. Forget about going through there for the shortcut. Today it is so preppy and safe, but back then, there was some real shit happening in there at night, and we were kids. Knives, guns, drugs, people shooting up…in the dark. We didn't go in there. But it was a part of our reality, that danger. In "New York Crew" Mike mentions that, because that was a fragment of our past culture. I don't think when he references that he means we were hanging out in it and fighting. I think he meant we were hanging out on the edge of it, outside A7, aware of the danger in the Park. I mean, we never went beyond Avenue B.

I think the song "New York Crew" ended up having a life of its own. I think it played on people's ideas and images in a way we didn't expect it to. So, people took it how they wanted to take it. And then you had kids from a totally different time and place singing it – young kids from Connecticut singing it, or kids all over the country. And that was weird, but it was fun. It showed that years later, kids were identifying with us and enjoyed our music. With DBD, we didn't have that many people singing along to our lyrics, and Mark was wild. But Judge, Mike had a different presence, and Mike just hunched over the crowd, this immovable force, this presence. And around him you had all these kids singing along. We saw that people enjoyed it, and we enjoyed it. Never would Mike and I say, "Man, look at these kids, they weren't there, why are they singing along?" No. We appreciated it, it meant something…it meant the world to us.