tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post3907859427867373603..comments2024-03-27T14:13:14.579-04:00Comments on DOUBLE CROSS: Shelter poll wrap upDOUBLE CROSShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894060297863887810noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-1059911228737767092010-09-20T18:33:04.285-04:002010-09-20T18:33:04.285-04:00I have a great story about getting chased by shelt...I have a great story about getting chased by shelter's roadie in their van.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-50957460889391806802010-09-20T00:45:47.075-04:002010-09-20T00:45:47.075-04:00Vishnu,
You are correct on all counts. But I nev...Vishnu,<br /><br />You are correct on all counts. But I never claimed that Ray did a thing to me. I was talking about why the band Shelter has not stood the test of time for me, personally. That is all. I am merely tired of his act. <br /><br />"*I think Ray Cappo himself would be the first to tell you he is FAR from perfect, is blessed/cursed with a desire to proclaim what he does know, and has simply tried to live a spiritual life based on The Vedas."<br /><br />Televangelists also say things like, "We are all sinners in the eyes of God!" That doesn't make me like them or what they do. <br /><br />We could go back and forth forever, but I don't see the point. Either you like you love Shelter, you hate Shelter, or you are somewhere in between (like me). I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.Ben Edgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08322170640778424533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-65184787809954634052010-09-19T23:02:44.403-04:002010-09-19T23:02:44.403-04:00http://www.static-void.org/Zine/9/thk.html
vic...http://www.static-void.org/Zine/9/thk.html<br /><br />vic's article with some more recent commentary attached.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-3181741360345389882010-09-19T10:37:59.980-04:002010-09-19T10:37:59.980-04:00The number of replies here says it all. Like it or...The number of replies here says it all. Like it or not, Ray Cappo is the most important and influential man in hardcore music. Oh you blind people...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-35873286148321294422010-09-18T12:13:44.807-04:002010-09-18T12:13:44.807-04:00"A general skeptic and critic of anything wit..."A general skeptic and critic of anything with any religious ties"<br /><br />Absolutely. Skepticism is completely healthy, particularly concerning blue monkey gods.<br /><br />Core values of hardcore? Let's start with anti-authoritarianism, something that does not jibe well with religion.Burai Core D&D https://www.blogger.com/profile/09368467748627188933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-85811276725010872272010-09-18T02:03:08.771-04:002010-09-18T02:03:08.771-04:00We still have HC in nyc because of Ray and Porcell...We still have HC in nyc because of Ray and Porcell(and Straight Ahead). Without them it would have been a sad scene. Anyone who was there knows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-68856687467995540162010-09-17T19:49:48.590-04:002010-09-17T19:49:48.590-04:00Someone wrote an excellent post on here about 6 mo...Someone wrote an excellent post on here about 6 months ago about the early '90s and the 'no fun' ethic that had taken hold in hardcore. The Hare Krishnas exemplified this perfectly - it's no wonder Ray and Shelter enjoyed the level of popularity they did - they were on the crest of that 'no fun' wave.<br /><br />By the mid '90s this 'no fun' idea morphed into militant veganism and hardstance - early 20-somethings taking themselves oh so seriously. Put a religious veneer on that seriousness and you have your average self-important devotee type. They also had the staying power of any 20-something.. within 4 years most had moved on.<br /><br />I have to agree with an early post that most Shelter material is unappealing today. While it's and interesting document of the times, I can't listen to it now...Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08726125892517417567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-76033349785792236352010-09-17T16:25:53.071-04:002010-09-17T16:25:53.071-04:00Ben:
A. How long have you known Ray Cappo persona...Ben:<br /><br />A. How long have you known Ray Cappo personally? <br /><br />B. How many times have you listened intently to other people (who are less than perfect) telling stories about our HC heroes, and the gossip is so fun in juicy you just get caught up in the fun of it all?<br /><br />(Suggested Answers): <br />A - You don't know him personally<br />B - THOUSANDS<br /><br />*I think Ray Cappo himself would be the first to tell you he is FAR from perfect, is blessed/cursed with a desire to proclaim what he does know, and has simply tried to live a spiritual life based on The Vedas.<br /><br />The guy has lived under our ridiculous little HC microscope for 25 years. He's not perfect. What you perceive as him saying "THIS IS THE WAY, I HAVE THE ANSWERS!" (while he does differently) - I perceive as "I'M TRYING TO FIND SOME TRUTH MYSELF, AND THIS IS WHAT I'VE COME UP WITH SO FAR" (and maybe I screw up along the way).<br /><br />Live and let live. Dude never did a thing to you.Vishnunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-45018747874507922002010-09-17T15:45:30.262-04:002010-09-17T15:45:30.262-04:00Jeffrey,
point well taken about the kid who was ...Jeffrey, <br /><br />point well taken about the kid who was molested. I actually did try to go back to Vic's site to refresh my memory about the details, and I couldn't find it. Post the link, please!<br /><br />What irks me more than anything about Shelter is how much of a hypocrite Ray was on all levels. The last thing I want to listen to is a guy like that preaching to me how I should live my life, when he doesn't even follow his own advice. What's the difference between that and a televangelist like Jim Baker?Ben Edgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08322170640778424533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-971000598976970892010-09-17T14:39:59.753-04:002010-09-17T14:39:59.753-04:00Vishnu for the winVishnu for the winAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-27542276861999912562010-09-17T14:39:30.736-04:002010-09-17T14:39:30.736-04:00Seeker Of The Truth, you wrote perhaps the best su...Seeker Of The Truth, you wrote perhaps the best summary possible of the whole 90s Krishna-core phenomenon-- well said.<br /><br />I'm neither opposed to nor supportive of it, but it was definitely an odd, unique, and very interesting intersection of subcultures. It's particularly interesting to look back on it with (I hope) a little more wisdom than I had at 17 or whatever and see it in a different light.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-81163577717086179202010-09-17T12:44:10.503-04:002010-09-17T12:44:10.503-04:00Seeker Of The Truth laid the foundation, Jeffrey h...Seeker Of The Truth laid the foundation, Jeffrey hammered it home. If you think otherwise or are still confused, then you are one of the following:<br /><br />-A general hater of anything Ray Cappo does<br /><br />-A general skeptic and critic of anything with any religious ties<br /><br />-A bitter angry nobody on a blog comment section<br /><br />HARIBOL MOTHERFUCKERSVishnunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-22953352946322425092010-09-17T11:01:31.039-04:002010-09-17T11:01:31.039-04:00A few misconceptions here....
"All of their ...A few misconceptions here....<br /><br />"All of their marketing (t-shirts, records, etc) were heavily covered in ISKCON images and messages."<br /><br />Not really. Sure, they had paintings and whatnot on their record covers and shirts that may have been trademarked by Iskcon, but it’s not like the name of that organization was printed all over their stuff. <br /><br />Yes, in the early days Shelter did a lot of canvassing for Iskcon. Yes, they (Cappo particularly) matured over time and stopped being so in your face. But if you listen to those early records with a little objectivity, it’s clear that there was genuine emotion and yearning behind what they were doing. To say they were nothing more than propped up missionaries (although I admit there was a missionary component to the band for a while) is pretty insulting. Give the guys credit for truly being inspired by something and wanting to change their lives. If they could do the whole thing over they’d probably do it differently but they can’t. <br /><br />“To answer your question, Seeker of the Truth, some of the teenage boys at a particular temple were sexually molested (possibly sodomized, I can't remember the details) by a guru. This guru knew Shelter very well. I think it might be a guy who toured with them in the early days. The details are fuzzy, but Vic Dicara wrote a thing on his web site about six years ago about it.”<br /><br />If you go read Vic’s thing again, he says it was one kid who was molested by another devotee living at the temple, not a guru. That doesn’t make it ok but what you wrote wasn’t accurate either. It’s also a bit of a stretch to malign Shelter for the actions of someone else who happened to be a member of the same religious organization. That's a really shitty situation but I'm not sure how you can blame anyone other than the person who committed the act.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13330297797062295632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-37829163559922884022010-09-17T10:30:54.355-04:002010-09-17T10:30:54.355-04:00SHAY KM: Do you really leave this world with your...SHAY KM: Do you really leave this world with your family and friends? <br /><br />There is nothing is Krishna consciousness that is against remembering someone especially for what they contributed to their communities or their significance in a family. Krishna consciousness has a very rich tradition in celebrating people's lives after they have left the material world.<br /><br />Do you think when you leave this world, that you're going to be conscious of any such celebration? Maybe what you're thinking is that you're still going to be able to read blog commentary as you move on to the next world?LIFE OF MY OWNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-79551833577963077772010-09-17T10:20:55.377-04:002010-09-17T10:20:55.377-04:00What are the "core values" of hardcore?!...What are the "core values" of hardcore?!?!<br /><br />A list would be great...and, if you don't have a defined list of "core" values then you might be full of shit.LIFE OF MY OWNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-79934132810153648352010-09-17T03:25:02.524-04:002010-09-17T03:25:02.524-04:00Cro-Mags get the pass? Go back on this blog and r...Cro-Mags get the pass? Go back on this blog and read the comments on the Harley Flanagan entries. Most of them are negative.<br /><br />"-Even if an impressionable young kid (and maybe this was you) ended up going to a temple as a result of his/her excitement over the band, how many kids were really "burnt" by this - or better yet, "harmed"? "<br /><br />To answer your question, Seeker of the Truth, some of the teenage boys at a particular temple were sexually molested (possibly sodomized, I can't remember the details) by a guru. This guru knew Shelter very well. I think it might be a guy who toured with them in the early days. The details are fuzzy, but Vic Dicara wrote a thing on his web site about six years ago about it.Ben Edgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08322170640778424533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-26963705119438442502010-09-16T23:26:41.048-04:002010-09-16T23:26:41.048-04:00HATERS GONNA HATE
Mantra = Best Shelter albumHATERS GONNA HATE<br /><br />Mantra = Best Shelter albumFartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-42128752888269031722010-09-16T20:25:43.163-04:002010-09-16T20:25:43.163-04:00"You come into this world
With nothing except..."You come into this world<br />With nothing except yourself<br />You, you leave this world<br />With nothing except yourself"<br /><br />Point well made. This is what I mean by crypto-fascist nonsense! We do not live alone in our little fantasy bubbles. You came into this world through a basic biological process involving parents! Remember? We leave this world with friends and family mourning us, and others remembering what we have done in our communities. This Krishna solipsism denies even the basic concept of community, family, or society. We do not live alone, nor do we die alone. This type of ideology is designed to strip people of their social and familial connections and then remake them as acolytes <br />of a power-hungry clique of zealots. It doesn't matter that it is a watered down version of Hinduism. It could just as well be Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam, or Buddhism (particularly the more militant Japanese Zen sects that had direct links with Japan's fascist government during WWII). The fact that so many of the readers here are defending Shelter makes me think that you have not done your homework on cults, brainwashing, and the insidious character of most organized religions. <br /><br />I would also agree with some of the comments that Shelter made some great HC music. Vic is undeniably a great guitar player. Props to him for this. Too bad it was all done in the service of creepy cult leaders eyeing up young punks. They did the same thing back in the 60s and 70s with our parents! And then they became yuppies! Sound familiar.ShayKMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-2185137610633075012010-09-16T20:07:29.638-04:002010-09-16T20:07:29.638-04:00Just to clarify things here, being Krsna conscious...Just to clarify things here, being Krsna conscious does not necessarily have anything to do with the organization of ISKCON. <br />Secondly i don't think that Shelter was formed as a vehicle for ISKCON's message. While Ray was very involved in ISKCON at the time I was always under the impression that the first SHelter record was supposed to be a swan song record that was deeply rooted in his new found spiritual beliefs.<br />The question I have is if this is antithesis to hardcore's core values can you define hardcore's core values?Earlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-28699580914355909732010-09-16T18:32:42.554-04:002010-09-16T18:32:42.554-04:00I agree with most of what Seeker of Truth posted…p...I agree with most of what Seeker of Truth posted…particularly about Cro Mags getting a pass (on a lot of bullshit, not just the Krishna thing).Ibn Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05249036028033990904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-77635699191572738942010-09-16T17:41:34.597-04:002010-09-16T17:41:34.597-04:00Dear Seeker of Truth,
I realize you were respondi...Dear Seeker of Truth,<br /><br />I realize you were responding to multiple criticisms of Shelter, but going back to my initial argument, the band was formed with a clear purpose of conversion. That point is difficult for me to ignore or separate from their music. <br /><br />Unlike some of the other commentators, I have no qualms with religion or even a band forming for the purposes of spreading their religion (ie christian rock), but this feels like an invasion in the hardcore scene and an antithesis to its core values. Sure there were earlier bands that embraced ISKCON, but Shelter was formed as a vehicle for ISKCON’s message with the purpose of increasing membership. To target this particular audience to proselytize, one that already has your attention from a previous band, seems manipulative to me. Ray could have easily have chosen another venue. Sure, one could argue that on some level Ray/Porcell may have been used by ISKCON just as Vic DiCara claims to have been (see: I was a teenage Hare Krshna). <br /><br />Again, my point is that the purpose for Shelter from day one was to proselytize (even if their approach to spirituality evolved over time; ie Jeffrey's comment). This to me is quite different than a band who were just passionate about their religion. If you look at the front jacket of the No Compromise 7", it shows Ray introducing ISKCON to a young man. All of their marketing (t-shirts, records, etc) were heavily covered in ISKCON images and messages. This was their purpose. <br /> <br />In defense of ISKCON, I do know a number of devotees who argue the benefits of the faith, who have lives of transformation due to its teachings. Again, that is beside the original point. Whether to bring this into the hardcore scene to convert its population, even if that is just 1% of the kids, is questionable to me. <br /><br />In my argument I’m not trying to fan flames, but to point to this example as something to learn from. The sincerity of many kids that get in to the hardcore scene is also what makes them easy to manipulate.Kennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-51165760064537426322010-09-16T16:11:55.504-04:002010-09-16T16:11:55.504-04:00I love the first lp and the 7" (with the blac...I love the first lp and the 7" (with the black and white cover - can't think of the name, but it was voted no 1 - brilliant music on them).<br /><br />the first lp always washes a calm over me.melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12673595560848288020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-30831829334738915652010-09-16T15:58:54.423-04:002010-09-16T15:58:54.423-04:00any good stories about hxc kids getting screwed ov...any good stories about hxc kids getting screwed over by ISKCON?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-36462156486317882682010-09-16T13:39:51.669-04:002010-09-16T13:39:51.669-04:00Seeker of the Truth nailed it. Cappo and Porcell f...Seeker of the Truth nailed it. Cappo and Porcell found something they really thought (and still do think) was important. So they’re both a little predisposed to be in your face at times. Maybe a little fanatical. Really, it wasn’t the end of the world and the hardcore scene was not irreparably damaged. <br /><br />What no one ever gives them credit for is maturing as they got older. Look at the lyrics Cappo wrote on Mantra and everything that came after it. (Full disclosure: I am a fan and I like ALL the Shelter records :) You’ll find a much more understanding, flexible view of spirituality and a lot more humility. Neither of those guys is perfect and they certainly deserve their fair share of criticism, but they’re human beings too. <br /><br />And, at least in the beginning, they were definitely manipulated by Iskcon. Not an excuse, but certainly part of the story.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13330297797062295632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2768432211492653817.post-7052368807002450612010-09-16T12:43:58.967-04:002010-09-16T12:43:58.967-04:00So I guess nobody likes the Cro-Mags or Antidote f...So I guess nobody likes the Cro-Mags or Antidote for bringing Krishna into the scene? Not that I'm religious, but stop crying about people being brainwashed. Shelter was pretty good, and YOT is one of the most important bands ever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com